kanotix.com
Anything goes - creating webpages
zonker666 - 21.11.2006, 21:21 Uhr
Titel: creating webpages
What program(s) can be recommended to create webpages? Anyone had any experience with Nvu?
I never tried this before so it just has to be simple 
), and my html-coding stat is -2 so dont recommend using a text editor please.
mzilikazi - 21.11.2006, 21:35 Uhr
Titel:
Nvu is a great WYSIWYG HTML editor. I like it anyway......
You can download the tarball from the Nvu site and simply run Nvu right out of its own directory.
Crust - 21.11.2006, 21:38 Uhr
Titel:
Nvu is simple, but it seems to create messy code. I do use it though for my personal web pages which I don't spend much time making and updating.
For some of the professional webpages I maintain. I use bluefish.
-Crust
craigevil - 21.11.2006, 21:39 Uhr
Titel:
There are some Firefox/Iceweasel extensions which add edit functions to it.
View Source With - you can define html editors to edit the code.
Mozile - http://mozile.mozdev.org/index.html - (Mozilla Inline Editor) is a context-sensitive XHTML editor that allows you to edit web pages from the comfort of your own browser. It can act as the client-side of a content-editing system or as a self-contained "web word processor".
HTML Validator is a Mozilla extension that adds HTML validation inside Firefox and Mozilla. The number of errors of a HTML page is seen on the form of an icon in the status bar when browsing.
Web Developer Toolbar Adds a menu and a toolbar with various web developer tools.
For actual coding tools:
W3C Amaya Amaya is a complete online web browsing and authoring environment and comes equipped with a WYSIWYG style of interface, similar to that of the most popular commercial browsers. With such an interface, users do not need to know the HTML or CSS languages .
NVU (pronounced N-view, for a "new view") makes managing a web site a snap. Now anyone can create web pages and manage a website with no technical expertise or knowledge of HTML.. NVU is no longer in official Debian repos.
OpenOffice Webwriter is a WYSIWYG web site design tool, part of the OpenOffice suite. "Creating Web Pages with OpenOffice.org"
Seamonkey Composer keeps getting better with dynamic image and table resizing, quick insert and delete of table cells, improved CSS support, and support for positioned layers. For all your simple documents and website projects, Composer is all you need."
SciTE: is a GUI-based single-document editor which uses the Scintilla editor component. It rapidly styles most common programming languages with good control over how syntactic elements are displayed, and features folding for C++, C, Java, JavaScript, and Python. Styling of HTML also styles embedded scripts written in VBScript, Javascript, or Python.
SCREEM: is a web development environment. It's purpose is to increase productivity when constructing a site, by providing quick access to commonly used features. While it is written for use with the GNOME desktop environment in mind it does not specifically require you to be running it, just have the libraries installed.
Quanta Plus: is a web development tool for the GNU/Linux K Desktop Environment.
Quanta is designed for quick web development and is rapidly becoming a mature editor with a number of great features and lies at the heart of the KDE Web Dev suite of tools.
Bluefish: is a powerful editor for experienced web designers and programmers.
Bluefish supports many programming and markup languages, but it focuses on editing dynamic and interactive websites.
NVU and Seamonkey are not available in official Debian repos, so you will have to install them your self.
A nice tool that works in Firefox/Iceweasel is Web Development Bookmarklets
h2 - 21.11.2006, 22:02 Uhr
Titel:
nvu sucks, unless they upgraded it. Last time I tried it, it DESTROYED my code completely. Luckily I had anticipated problems, so I'd created backups of my files before opening them with nvu. The destruction was immediate, and did not require a save operation to make stick, it worked on the actual file data.
At that point I decided to never use nvu for anything again, obviously.
The real problem with nvu is that there simply is no actual real demand for it. Any programmer who might find such a project interesting... well, they won't, because any programmer can do html and css adequately.
Dreamweaver can be gotten to run on wine, and dreamweaver mx is ok, if you must use a wysiwyg editor.
It's possible that newer nvu version are slightly better, but checking mine, the latest release is from 2006-7, which does not suggest a thriving project, especially given the horrible quality of nvu 1.0.
nvu was started from the original netscape code editor, funded by linspire, who basically just paid a guy to start working on a wysiwyg html editor, since that was an item missing from the gnu/linux desktop, and their customers were clamoring for one. If that sounds familiar, think evolution. Both projects are singularly mediocre, and I don't think it's an accident, they weren't organically founded, and I think the work, especially with nvu, was always half hearted at best.
Keep in mind, while you can't really do image manipulation or sound editing easily without a nice gui app, you can do perfect html / css / web scripting work with text editors. Better, in my opinion. So it's really not very surprising that a full gui html editor isn't existing in linux desktops, there's no real reason to write one.
By the way, it's no surprise at all to see nvu pulled from debian, it wasn't just bad, it was lethal, especially to any page that contained programming.
My favorite was when it decided that my initial php header calls should be moved down the page, instantly, no possibility to undo it. For anyone who knows php, headers cannot be set after any html, well, any character at all, has been sent. This wasn't just a small mistake, it was a lethal mistake, and it was un-undoable due to some other bugs in the file save stuff that totally destroyed my files.
Since the number one requirement for any code editor is obviously not to destroy your files, nvu never even got to step one.
hubi - 21.11.2006, 22:17 Uhr
Titel:
craigevil,
thx for that nice overview.
hubi
hey_ian - 21.11.2006, 22:25 Uhr
Titel:
Take QuantaPlus. It is the best.
Nvu sucks.
h2 - 21.11.2006, 22:33 Uhr
Titel:
I think kate is the best personally, mostly because it has excellent project management, aka sessions.
That's a killer function by the way, it makes up for the stuff it's missing. Quanta is pretty good too, if you're only doing HTML. Personally, if it weren't for some annoying multitab bugs with windows editplus, I'd use editplus on wine, but wine apps are too unstable to use for real in my experience. But editplus is to me the absolutely perfect html editor.
Once Kate finishes their current todo list, kate will be missing very few key features, except html code snippet support. On that todo list: multiple line search and replace, a must have for real html work. Search and replace through multiple open files, another must have. Quanta has the second one by the way, kate does not currently have it.
But overall I would agree, if it's only html / css you are working with, quanta is probably the best choice currently.
0815 - 21.11.2006, 23:06 Uhr
Titel:
Zitat:
(...) and I think the work, especially with nvu, was always half hearted at best.
yes, h2 is so damned right. he always is.
zonker666
you won't get in webpage heaven w/o a simple text editor. BUT - for basic html editing without one, you CAN use nvu - depending on your needs.
as long as there is no better alternative try http://kompozer.net . it's some kind of bugfix-release to nvu, and it should do an ok job for your html-coding stat -2.
edit: 
, anyone noticed?
mzilikazi - 22.11.2006, 00:29 Uhr
Titel:
h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
The real problem with nvu is that there simply is no actual real demand for it. Any programmer who might find such a project interesting... well, they won't, because any programmer can do html and css adequately.
Hmmm now why would a real programmer even take a second glance at a WYSIWYG editor anyway? That's just as silly as relying on a script to do something as simple as apt-get upgrade. 
So really it depends on your level of expertise and what's more important right now; learn HTML or just get something up and usable. Personally, I'd rather have a tooth extracted by a vision impaired 1st year med student with arthritis than learn how to code (but that's just me) and I don't give 2 rat farts if my pages are w-blah-blah-blah compliant or not.
So back to the topic....The OP specifically requested simplicity so Bluefish, Scite (and presumably Kate) and other text editors are out of the question.
Meanwhile...I'll be looking at some of the other WYSIWYG editors that are out there. Seamonkey has been on the todo list for some time now....
bluewater - 22.11.2006, 01:10 Uhr
Titel:
The Kanotix-off-line-FAQ is done with Quanta Plus
piper - 22.11.2006, 03:00 Uhr
Titel:
Mine (homepage actually), which is very simple and done in about 7 minutes with kedit
h2 - 22.11.2006, 07:08 Uhr
Titel:
mzilikazi, it's always interesting to see what catches programmer's minds, and for some reason or other, a wysiwyg html editor never did. Hard to say why, I think it's because there was no pressing need, no itch to get scratched, which is why linspire had to pay the guy in the first place to even take up the project. In this case the itch would be to get a way to make a really good webpage, but the sad fact is, it's radically more simple to learn html/css than it is to make a wysiwyg html editor, so it's hard to see who would ever have that itch, if you see what I mean. If the goal was to make good webpages, then you're better off as the programmer learning html/css, since that will always make the best pages. So who would be interested in doing this programming?
Now having a good gui text editor is another story, for html/css, that's a super useful tool, and of course, it's hardly surprising to find that there are several good choices available on linux for code editors, gui or console, each to their own, but it's still code being edited as code. Just a matter of how the editing is done, what extras are there, etc.
I hope, however, that you're not suggesting.. gasp, that I'm a programmer.. lol... there's a reason I do scripting, and it's because I'm not a real programmer, just have fun with stuff, play around with things to learn them.
Some things just don't happen on linux desktop, unless some corporation pays for it to happen, and in this case, what happened was that corporate clients wanted to use linux desktop but insisted they get their beloved wysiwyg editor.
So there was never an actual organic growth of the project, some corporation just wanted something for free that they can't get for free on windows, and linspire tried to satisfy that fairly silly idea.
nvu, by the way, if you never use any type of programmign like php or anything like it, is supposed to be ok. By far the worst available wysiwyg editor in existence, but vaguely, barely functional.
However, the project must have run into some real problems if it was dropped from debian, it appears to still be alive to some degree, and maybe by version 2.0 they will have an actually useable 1.0 equivalent.
The real problem nvu had, I used to follow it, was that they magically jumped from about 0.1 to 1.0 in a few months, suggesting strongly that what was released as 1.0 was actually really only about a 0.3 product, which from what I saw was about what it was. Huge bugs, broken stuff all over, etc.
Considering that for example gparted, which is an outstanding gui partitioning tool doesn't consider their current release version, which is almost as functional as say partition magic, to merit more than a 0.3 number, nvu really should have been a bit more honest about where the project was at, and the 1.0 had nothing to do with it being ready for prime time, it was just some marketing pressure I think from linspire, or something like that.
Probably one day it will be ok to use it, and if you do decide to use it, get the latest version from the nvu.com site.
<by the way, the real comparison I'd say between say du-fixes and html editors would be something like editplus, a really nice lightweight code editor, that uses a lot of text config files to enable you to do things more easily that you already can do yourself but just don't feel like doing, or explaining to other people how to do. Makes some steps easier, less repetitive, etc, but doesn't really change how the stuff works in any real way. Sure you can type in
<ul>
<li></li>
<li></li>
<li></li>
</ul>
if you absolutely love to type, but why bother when you can just click the code snippet bar you create yourself using a simple template text file?
If I was an actual programmer, I think I would have cloned edit plus for linux, since it's still in my opinion the most pleasant to use code editor I've ever tried for real html work, and nothing in linux matches its core features, for some really weird reason I can't figure out, the missing features are not rocket science, and if I knew c I'd try to write them because it's just silly not to have them.>
drb - 22.11.2006, 08:19 Uhr
Titel:
As a complete novice who knows a limited amount of html and virtually no javascript, php, css etc. I manage to put up reasonable personal sites with nvu (and more latterly kompozer). I used to use frontpage express so nvu was a major improvement. For minor changes to existing pages I use a text editor.
nvu does change the code but virtually all of my webpages render just as I want them to so I'm not bothered. The WYSIWYG interface allows me do things I could never achieve with my limited html etc. knowledge. I have only one page (in a 100+) with a very complex javascript coding which messes up to the point that it isn't readable in Firefox (but is in IE). I just use a text editor for this page.
drb
zonker666 - 22.11.2006, 14:46 Uhr
Titel:
thank you all for the suggestions I think ill have to try several of them to find the right one for me
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